Assata Shakur talks to Pastors for Peace
Assata Interview, 11/6/00
continued from page 1
Could you talk about the Black Panther program? I know that it influenced
other activist groups like the American Indian Movement. How could
we use some of those ideas? And could you also tell us about the
methodology the FBI used to try to infiltrate and destroy these
Assata: The Black Panther Party
had a Ten Point Program and Platform. We talked about the right
to control our communities, to be free from capitalist exploitation,
to be free from induction into the military, the right to food,
housing, clothing, jobs and freedom. The BPP was an anti-imperialist,
pro-people party, not a racist party. It participated in coalitions
with all progressive organizations, with Puerto Rican, Chicano,
Asian and other liberation movements all over the world.
Because of this the BPP came under siege by the
police. It became the number one target of the FBI COIENTELPRO program.
The FBI framed people on false charges, murdered people, including
murdering them in their beds as they did with Fred Hampton and Mark
Question: What advice would you
have for activists in the US?
Assata: (Summary) First of all
we need to put real democracy on the agenda in the US, because there
is no real democracy there now. To go along with the notion that
there is democracy in the United States, is like perpetuating the
fairy tale that the emperor has clothes on. I also think we need
to treat activism as FUN- because it is fun. We need to develop
a political style that's interesting and fun and personal. To celebrate
Question: I'd like to sort of
pull this back to Cuba: The reasoning behind the debate about whether
or not to pass a law allowing the sale of food and medicine to Cuba
is because the United States has laws imposing unilateral sanctions
against trade with what are defined [by the US government] as "terrorist
nations". Cuba is on the lis of "terrorist nations",
not because it has put bombs on civilian airlines that exploded
in mid-air-that's what has been done TO Cuba; except for the one
incident where Cuba was forced to shoot down the airplane of the
Cuban-American terrorists who were illegally flying over Cuba, the
most important reason that has been given for a number of years
now about why Cuba is on that list, why the US calls it a "terrorist"
nation, is because Cuba gives political asylum to individuals who
the US calls "terrorists". And the US government has demanded
that Assata and others who have been given political asylum be returned
to the United States.
The question that has been raised often is, Are
you worried that Cuba will turn you back over to the US government
in order to resolve this problem? And if you don't think that Cuba
will do that, what does that mean to you?
Assata: I think first of all,
I trust Cuba as a principled country. Cuba's strength is that it
has been steadfast in its commitment to the principles of liberation,
freedom, of resistance to the kind of institutionalized terrorism
that the United States government does every day. The US has attacked
countries like Grenada, Panama, Libya -- the list of victims of
US terrorism is almost infinite. And the US government's participation
in torture, whether in El Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, is well-documented
and widely known.
I believe Cuba's strength has been its denouncing
that kind of terrorism, torture. It does this politically not only
by providing asylum for exiles from terrorist regimes but also fighting
in the context of the United Nations Organization, in world organizations,
in denouncing all kinds of terrorist torture in governmental policies.
All of the maneuvers by the US government to keep
the blockade alive is a manipulation by the US government because
"Cuba poses a threat". The real reason Cuba poses a threat
has nothing to do with my being here or anyone else being here.
It's because Cuba is an example of a country that is actively fighting
against imperialist domination and insists on its own right to self-determination
and sovereignty. The US government's most acute fear is that other
countries are going to follow the Cuban example. They want everybody
to know that if you follow this example we will attack you in every
way that we can. That is the reality as I see it about the blockade
and why it is being continued.
The Miami Mafia (as everybody here calls them)
has some input into that, but I believe it is not the money the
Miami Mafia contributes to both parties that is making US policy
what it is. It is the United States' government's insistence on
being able to control the world, to tell all the people how to live,
to export their version of "dollarocracy" to everybody
else and to make every country in the world subservient to the interests
of big business. I think that as long as Cuba continues to be strong,
I have nothing whatsoever to fear from the Cuban people. In fact
I think I have much, much, much to gain in understanding how a people
can unite, how people can be strong, and how people can take a little
piece of earth and try to mold that piece of art into a work of
art and a work of love.
Question: Can you comment on the
importance of religion and spirituality?
Assata: I think that spirituality
is important for all people to develop. I don't mean there necessarily
has to be a religious aspect to spirituality. Some people are spiritual
in a religious way, other people are spiritual in their work and
in their art and in their treatment of other people.
In my case, spirituality has been important to
me because at periods in my life there's been very little else that
I've had going. I've actually needed to call on, to feel the forces
of good in this universe to be able to survive. I've always been
a student of different ways of looking at the world, different religions.
That's been part of my survival mechanism, and also part of my curiosity
as a person, because I believe that some people spell "good"
with two o's and some people spell it with one -- and there shouldn't
be a contradiction between that.
In Cuba I was able to broaden my vision of spirituality.
Here for the first time I became aware of the African and African-Cuban
religions and began to study them and see how people interacted
and made very common things-rocks and leaves and shells-into things
that were very precious. I saw how people respected history, not
only in terms of the revolutionary government preserving history-because
I think that one of the great things that the Cuban revolution has
done is preserve history.
I came here and there's a museum called the Museum
of the Revolution. I got to one little case and there were these
shoes of one of the revolutionary heroes who died before the victory.
And as I looked at those shoes, tears began to come out of my eyes,
because-this was someone who gave his life for the Revolution. So
the Revolution didn't have this person, but made sure that this
person was remembered.
And in the African religions, one of the things
that was very important to me was that somehow the struggle of so
many slaves is remembered. The ancestors are remembered. All of
my experience of studying religion, studying spirituality, studying
natural healing, traditional medicine, has kind of enriched my vision
of the world. Not only seeing reality as this moment, but as a culmination
of all of the history behind us, and all of the fruit that hopefully
we will be able to grow from the seeds that we are trying to plant
now, of goodness and peace and beauty and equality.
Question: In the movement to free
Mumia Abu Jamal, in the US we've seen increasingly repressive tactics
against the protestors, jailings and fines against protestors. One
of the caravanistas who is usually with us had her passport taken
away from her, she cannot be here in Cuba this week because she
participated in a protest in support of Mumia last summer. What
can you say about where the movement in support of Mumia stands
Assata: Looking at the repression
from Cuba is like looking at Martians. Whether it was in Seattle
or Washington or at the Conventions, the visual image looks like
these space monsters that are attacking people. Because you don't
see that here! Nobody here lives that reality. And people in the
United States take that reality as normal.
The survival of the movement around Mumia is absolutely
one of the most important struggles that needs to be waged, that
must be waged right now. And it is more and more obvious that the
US government is willing to ...I don't know, to set extraordinary
bail for acts of civil disobedience. Some of the fines and bails
have been out of this world in a so-called "free country".
But in spite of that I think that what the government
can't do is squash everybody. So what the main thrust needs to be
right now is to incorporate as many people as possible into the
struggle to save Mumia, and to do whatever is needed to save that
man's life. Because Mumia is not just one person.
Mumia represents, at this particular time in history,
opposition to the United States government. He represents opposition
to the prison-industrial complex.
The death penalty is used in such a blatantly racist
way in the United States. There is no way that can be defended under
any kind of definition of justice by anybody.
I think that struggling to save Mumia's life will
save many other people's lives and in that struggle, we need to
have a new definition of what justice is. A new definition of how
people are treated in the society. And how people are not some kind
of disposable item that you throw away, you destroy. You have a
government that is sentencing 20-year-olds to life in prison without
parole, for drug offenses. When you're 20 years old and you sell,
not even a huge quantity of drugs-we're not talking about the dons
or the godfathers or anybody else-we're talking about small quantities
of drugs. And they write in the newspapers "This is a drug
kingpin" and they sentence this person to life without parole.
What kind of reality is that creating? What kind
of future for the United States is that creating? If these people
ever get out, who will they be? After years of watching beatings,
tortures, suffering, you know what I'm saying? So I think the struggle
around Mumia is important, to defend all of those people who are
struggling against this system. I think that the more that people
feel they can WIN that struggle, that they can go to their neighbors,
that they can have signs on their blocks, that they can do things
where they live, and not make it so abstract. Bring it home, take
it to work, put a sign where you work. Take it to your church, to
make it more and more a people's struggle. I think people's struggles
are the only ones that in the long run cannot be defeated.
Question: (Inaudible. Probably
about media manipulation...)
Assata: (Talking about how absurd
it was that the US could convince people Grenada was a danger to
Grenada has about 100,000 people. I remember Ronald
Reagan holding up this map, an aerial map of an airport, and saying
this was gonna be a military airport that was gonna threaten the
people of the United States. And actually they convinced a huge
amount of people that Grenada, a LITTLE, TINY ISLAND, that wasn't
even the size of Brooklyn, was a threat to the United States government!!!
And people really believed it. It was like convincing people to
believe in the tooth fairy. (Laughter). So people have to be aware
of how the media manipulates the way we think. Because they have
really created a situation where all the US government has to do
is say that such-and-such a government is terrorist, and they can
wipe people off the map! The language that is being used in the
media today is incredible.
I must have been about 14 years old when I read
"1984". It never occurred to me that anyone would name
a nuclear missile "Peacekeeper". It never occurred to
me that thousands of people would be killed in the name of "peace-keeping".
But that is what is happening today.
They have referred to the deaths of 200,000 people
in Iraq as "collateral damage". How can you justify that?
They are making a language that is a callous language of imperialism
and we are using it. That doesn't mean we are going along with their
language, but that we have not developed our own. The average person
living in the US may not even be aware that those are 200,000 women,
children, babies that are dead, and they are not even called human
beings, they are called "collateral damage". "Friendly
fire"-what the hell is that? It is sickening when you listen
to it, but you are inundated by it.
Because they've developed these code words, they
have been incorporated into the language of politics, and people
see that as normal. Just as they see the police dressed up as Martians
beating people up as "normal". So the abnormal, the sick,
the vicious have become more and more interwoven into the violent
culture of the United States. Into the way news is seen, into the
way movies are seen.
I watched this movie, they had it on TV here, called
"Instinct." Black actor Cuba Gooding, a very good actor,
is playing the psychologist, and his patient is this white anthropologist
who has been extradited from some African country for killing three
people. And Cuba Gooding is trying to get at the roots of what has
made this man "mad". The man has a relationship with gorillas
that he's been studying and is beginning to bond with gorillas;
he finds that the gorillas have this good gorilla way of living.
And this anthropologist becomes like a hero in this movie. And he's
talking about what liberation is, how gorillas have achieved a stage
of liberation, although you are never clear what he means by that.
And because this guy stands up to this system in
prison in which the roughest prisoner gets a turn to go out on the
exercise yard; they deal out a deck of cards and the one who gets
the ace gets to go out. And the one who is the strongest and the
most evil takes the ace and always goes out into the yard. So this
anthropologist stands up against this strong guy-who also happens
to be black-and he becomes the hero of the prison. In the end he
escapes. And he's like this great white hero who escapes.
And nowhere in the whole movie, there is not one
word about these three people he killed. All three of them were
Africans, and they were portrayed as poaching on the animals, capturing
the gorillas. And this guy kills them because of the gorillas.
In the way that this whole history is told, we
feel so much for this guy. We begin to love him; he becomes the
hero, the symbol of liberty and justice. He and his relationship
to the gorillas become principal, and the three Africans that he
killed are totally irrelevant.
And from the beginning to the end of the movie,
that's the way it goes. And I'm looking at this and thinking, "This
is incredible! When Malcolm X created 'tricknology' as a word to
describe how the mind can be twisted and distorted and manipulated
into believing that the enemy is the victim and the victim is the
enemy-the United States is a MASTER of it! You have a bill: "Feed
Cuba! Food for Cuba!" that not only tightens the blockade,
makes things harder for the Cuban people, and they say "Oh,
this is a wonderful thing to open trade with Cuba". And they
have people believing it. We're living in a very tricky world, and
unless we become analytical and expose the tricknology, people will
become sucked into that. It is very easy, it is very, very easy.
Question: Cuba has been fighting
against [neoliberal] globalization. What do you think the potential
for the anti-globalization movement is?
Assata: I think that the movement
against the policies of the World Bank, of the IMF, is very important.
People are really beginning to see the mechanisms of imperialism.
When colonialism existed people could see colonialism. When racial
segregation existed in its apartheid form, people could see the
"whites only" signs. But it's much more difficult to see
the structures of neo-imperialism, neo-colonialism, neo-slavery.
I think that the movement against the World Bank,
against the globalization process that is happening, is very positive.
We need a globalization, a globalization of people who are committed
to social justice, to economic justice. We need a globalization
of people who are committed to saving this earth, to making sure
that the water is drinkable, that the air is breathable.
When I was a child, if someone had talked to me
about buying water, I would have thought it was a joke. If we are
not committed to saving this earth we will be buying designer air
filters and gas masks with little Nike swishes on them. (Laughter,
applause) The people who are running this planet are insane-they
are literally destroying it. I don't know where they think they're
gonna drink water, breathe air....This planet is a wonderful place,
but a vulnerable place. And they are making and implementing policies
that are destroying the earth in all kinds of ways.
The movement against the kind of global assassination
that is going on, in terms of whole countries-because every African
country is facing an ecological disaster in terms of becoming deserts,
in terms of fuel-Africa is one of the richest continents in the
world but its people are the poorest in the world. A lot of that
poverty is directly related to the policies of the IMF and the World
Bank. Ending those policies is very important not only to Cuba but
to people all over the world who want to see their children grow
up and have access to health care, to live somewhere that is not
a desert, where they can drink water, where they can breathe air.
So I think that movement against the IMF and World Bank policies
is one of the most important, most optimistic struggles that is
going on at this moment.
Question: In 1965 US President
Dwight D. Eisenhower said the Pentagon was planning for 100 years
into the future. Most of us don't even plan for 5 years ahead. I
don't know how Cuba is coming along with it's planning. But most
of us are always REACTING to what the world powers do. What is our
pro-active plan for 5 or 10 years from now?
Assata: I wish (laughs) I had
those answers. I believe that the first part of planning is to really
believe that you can put your plan into practice. And I think that
one of the problems that exists in the United States and in many
places in the world is that people don't believe that they can make
a difference. So a lot of times we're defeated before we even start.
We've become consumers of a world vision, of Kentucky
Fried Chicken, of McDonalds, and we're convinced that Kentucky Fried
Chicken tastes better than any other thing, or that a hamburger
made by McDonalds is something special. Other than a piece of greasy
meat and some bread. McDonald's is an idea we've been sold. on.
And we've also consumed the idea of powerlessness, of the idea that
"you can't fight City Hall"; of "you can't change
things, the government is strong, that's just the way things are".
And as long as we continue to have that vision
of the world, the planning of a better world is going to be a hard
nut to crack. So I think that one of the things as a step towards
the phase that WE plan years and years ahead is to actually believe
that this world is redeemable, changeable; that we can eradicate
poverty, that we can eradicate alienation, that we can eradicate
this tremendous consumerism, this disease that we have to buy everything
that exists, everything that the television says we have to have.
We have to have a vision of the world we want to
make in 100 years. And maybe when we have that vision, when we convince
enough people that that is a realistic vision, and that the opposite
vision is basically that if we don't do something in this 100 years,
a hundred years from now this world is gonna be so destroyed, so
raped and ravished that we won't HAVE much of a world to save.
Internalizing the importance of this century, and
how much work we have to do, will give us at least some ways to
invent a system of planning. I think it's really hard to plan if
you don't believe you can implement those plans. I have faith in
our ability to transform this world from a hellish reality, to one
that will eventually lead us toward heaven. (applause).
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